Did the walls come tumbling down? I think not!
TBN Unites Oneness Pentecostals with TrinitariansThe walls come tumbling down
"My opinion on this article is that both Trinitarians and Oneness believers are biblically incorrect in their interpretation of the Godhead. Jesus said in John 4:24 God is a Spirit...
The word invisible cannot be defined, only experienced. When we start defining God we create a religious system that eventually abuses those who become subject to those teachings. At the end of the day, those who hold wealth appear to be right and thus the damage is already done!
Hard to stop the deception being a "Nice Christian". For those who attempt to bring balance to the issue, you will be labelled by the majority as a rebel!
With that being said, Let the rebellion begin!"
Terry Marcum
Did the walls come tumbling down?" I say no, both sides are as stubborn now as they ever were.
…"And then I’m going to become so Oneness in my presentation that I eliminate the revelatory distinction between Father Son and Holy Spirit. (okay) And if I’m fighting Oneness I’ve become so extreme in my attitude that I make three Gods, you see so,so, we go from one extreme to the other extreme, instead of coming together on the premise that I need your theology and you need my theology (C.M "absolutely") to round the body of Christ. (C.M "absolutely") So lets sit down together and lets restate the Godhead in terms that are cohesive , comprehensiveable so that all of us can grasp it then after we baptize and after people receive the holy Spirit then lets get up and do what Romans tells us to do to transform people by the renewing of their minds." (claps form audience)
This is an excerpt from TBN 3/8/99 with a Trinitarian Bishop Clarence McClendon and Oneness Pentecostal Bishop Noel Jones discussing how to have unity together in their ministries and to learn from each others differences. What I watched were these two men doing everything they can to break down the walls that were put up in the first 2 centuries of the Church to keep any false teaching of Gods nature out.
This is amazing that teachers can be so lacking in Church history as to repeat the same mistakes.
In the same manner the Mormons have tried to unite with the Church and now we have anti Trinitarians trying to take advantage of the new openness that is occurring on Christian broadcasting. How far will they go to have unity? What will be next ? Is TBN going to accept The Rev. Sun Yung Moon (who believes he is the new messiah) He's got a big Church too.
Why would TBN which stands for Trinity Broadcasting Network allow or promote such a thing. Maybe TBN should change their name or change their platform.Not all Oneness are sympathetic to this kind of unity. This being the same for Trinitarians as well.
Did you catch what the Oneness said," after we baptize and after people receive the holy Spirit." Because Oneness believes one MUST be baptised in Jesus name only to be saved and then speak in tongues or there is no salvation.
The concept of restating the Godhead. There is nothing inherently wrong with trying to explain this in modern terms as long as one keeps the truth. But this sounds more detrimental considering how Oneness redefines what is held as three persons to be three manifestations (and more). They look upon us as he had mentioned, as believing in three Gods calling us at best modified tritheists teaching there are three spirits that are separate. Most have not taken the time to carefully examine what we actually believe and why.
Oneness holds to Jesus being God and man but reinterpret it to the Father being the deity and the Son who is the humanity only. Yet the Father is not the person of God but only a title or role,( now called manifestation) of the Spirit who is God. So the Son is not God but only the man the Father dwelt in. These become three actions of God and everything is avoided to say they are three persons.While this can seem at first to be a matter of semantics, it is much more.
Later on in the discussion it was said that McClendon and T.D Jakes as well as others preach at Jones Oneness Church. Isn't that grand.(Jakes does espouse a Oneness interpretation on the nature of God Jakes also states the Trinity is a complex issue, saying, "I'm not sure we can totally bold God to a numerical system." "The concept of the Godhead is a mystery that has baffled Christians for years. With our limited minds we try to comprehend a limitless God. How can we explain one God but three distinct manifestations? " "We believe in one God, who is eternal in His existence,Triune in His Manifestations, being both Father, Son and Holy Ghost AND that He is Sovereign and Absolute in His authority." (Doctrinal Statement for T D. Jakes/Potter's House Ministries," March 18 1999 ) In a Radio interview Aug. 1998 by Living by the Word "We have one God, but He is Father in creation, Son in redemption, and Holy Spirit inregeneration." (Quotes from CRI Journal vol.22 issue 2)
Oneness looks at themselves as being the only true believers having the Holy Spirit as evidenced by speaking in tongues. This all began in modern times (in 1913) 13 years after the Azusa street revival, where Trinitarians spoke in tongues.
Oneness accuses the Church of being tied with Rome with the Trinity being of pagan origin. History shows the doctrine of the Trinity was there long before Constantine’s time when the Church in Rome became a center for Christianity after it was legal to be a Christian . The term "Trinitas" was dubbed by Tertullian over a century before in his now famous debate against Praxeas. But he was not the first to use the term, we have the written record of a man Theophilus many years before in his epistle to Autolycus The 2nd,xv. We can assume it was used prior to Theophilus and was held as a common Church belief because their was no outcry against it. This is established with the many quotes that are left to us in history.
Despite the accusation's of the Roman Church inventing and promoting the Trinity we find the Church in Rome falling prey to numerous falsehoods that they tried to keep out, one of which was Oneness. Almost 125 years before Constantine conflict arose with what is classified as modalism (Oneness Pentecostalism). This teaching found support with two early Bishops of Rome, Zephyrinus and Callistus. Zephyrinus was the head Bishop at the time and was attracted to the Modalistic view. Caught between two major factions trying to keep the peace, he was advised by his soon to be successor Callistus on how to keep both sides satisfied. After Zephyrinus died in 217 A.D. Callistus kept his policy and Modalism became the official theory in Rome for almost a generation. He also was determined to excommunicate both Sabellius ( who promoted Modalism) as well as Hippolytus (who promoted the Trinity) who he accused of promoting two Gods. He devised a formulae that would satisfy the contention of both parties to keep the peace, since he considered himself the Pope.
"Callistus gave out a statement which declared that the Father and the Son are the same, and that the Spirit which became incarnate in the virgin Mary is not different from the Father, but one and the same". "It seems to have been a modified form of Modalistic Monarchianism."(K. Latourette History of Christianity p.144) Hippolytus in 228 AD said this of the contention,"Thus, after the death of Zephyrinus, supposing that he had obtained (the position) after which he so eagerly pursued, he [Callistus] excommunicated Sabellius, as not entertaining orthodox opinions" (Refutation of All Heresies 9:7).
The Catholic Church gets blamed for inventing the Trinity yet when we look through it's history it tells a different story. they actually promoted modalism and the arian doctrine of the Son being a creature.We find Anicetus, Bishop of Rome (160 a.d.) tried to influence Polycarp the Bishop of Smyrna to change the date of the resurrection observance, Polycarp who was a Trinitarian refused him. Zephyrinus (210 A.D.) and Callistus (220 A.D.) were the first bishops to claim Mt.16:18 to themselves, both were Modalistic in their view of God. Tertullian (the one who popularized the phrase Trinity) challenged this and called him an usurper saying, "as if he was the Bishop of Bishop's". History shows it was many Trinitarians that resisted a single church Government with a Pope as head, so they did not invent it. A.Harnack in his book the History of Dogma actually states that "Modalism…was for almost a generation the official theory in Rome." Which certainly proposes a problem for those who claim a Roman origin of the Trinity. It is the opposite as Callistus a modalist modified the view to keep the peace.
"In the 3rd century Sabellius in Rome made this into a more sophisticated system ironing out the kinks. He claimed "the existence of a divine monad (which he named the huiopater) which by a process of expansion projected itself successively in revelation as the Father, Son, H.Spirit".( Elwells Evangelical Dictionary of Theology p.727) So each appeared in different periods of time having no simultaneous appearance. The Father was the creator and law giver, the Son was the redeemer and the Holy Spirit was the giver of grace and the regenerator.As Oneness developed it became more fine tuned to what they have today. Yet there are still some who hold the original views of Sabellius and others.
These issues were discussed as well as debated in the beginning of the Church. TBN is allowing an undoing of what was settled over1700-1800 years ago. While it is good to civily discuss the issues so that people know the differences in position, to promote understanding . I don't think it is advantageous to put aside the differences for the sake of unity.
HOW TO RECOGNIZE IF YOU ARE IN A
Are you told not to question what is being taught because the leaders are honest and want the best for you so you must trust them. Has someone replaced your own choices in life. Are you told not to ask questions why anyone left, your to accept the answers the leaders give you such as: they fell into sin, they didn’t receive correction, they weren’t open or they had a bad heart and didn’t want to be disciples Are you told that you must be with their certain church or group to be saved and not by Jesus Christ. If you want to leave are you being told their is no other church that practices truth, you will go to hell. Are you made to feel your failures, that your performance is not up to par for the bibles standard Are you being rebuked for things such as the way you say hello or how you respond to being asked to do something for a leader or disciple. Do they tell you its a matter of the heart how one complies. Are they putting down other church’s and building themselves up. Do they sometimes use people as examples of what you are to be doing and others on what you are not to be doing. Do they bring attention to what they do, and ignoring others that may be doing the same things outside their church. Do they put down others to make themselves look better, calling themselves righteous and others unrighteous Do they call those who leave fall away’s and enemies, dogs returning to their own vomit, using the examples of Korah or Judas. Do they stop you from reading anything negative about themselves calling it spiritual pornography or recommend you not to read it for your own spiritual protection. Do they recommend for you to be around their people expecting you to be at all the group activities. If not you're spirituality and dedication are questioned. Do they defend all that they do even though it can be harmful or wrong. Do they operate by humility or are they arrogant and demand you to obey if you are considering otherwise. Or is it done subtly by manipulating you into obeying by statements such as, real Christians obey their leaders or if you were following Jesus you would see what I’m saying is right. true disciples did not question Jesus. THINGS TO BE AWARE OF People telling you how talented you are and saying you can really go places. (flattery goes a long way in cults) An instant bonding of friendship without your knowing who they are or they really knowing you, they act as your best friend (love bombing still works). When you ask questions about their history or the group they are vague in their answers or avoid answering them. (not answering or postponing it makes it go away) Are you required to attend studies, going through the program before you are allowed to be a Christian. (this will attach you to the groups goals) Are they emphasizing their church and who they are, more than Christ. They teach that one can only be a Christian by joining them. (exclusive spirituality appeals to our pride and works well today) Cults will always divide the family unit instead of bringing them together. They will make you choose between God and their church. they use scriptures such as Jesus came to bring a sword not peace or one must give up brothers sisters wife and house for the kingdom and be a true follower Children often become the most hurt because of strict rules enforced on them.they lose their childhood and are deeply affected being unable to adjust later on in life.Religious systems that are not balanced can be socially and psychologically disastrous for innocent children. (click here to go to facts on Jehovah Witnesses and children) What to do when confronted to join Say you're not interested and do not put up with their badgering and phone calls. If you are already a member, leave while it may be easy because it doesn’t get easier to leave later on. KNOW THE RIGHTS YOU HAVE You have every right to ask questions, lots of them in fact. What is their history and the people involved and those they look up to for spiritual teaching. What books influenced them or what do they read. What is their doctrine, is their basic beliefs and philosophy of ministry on paper. If not, why not. Can you review on paper their revenues, are they open to the people and public. Do they review who gives what to the Church. Are peoples finances monitored? If others left can you find out why, or is mum the word. Do they allow you to speak to former members. If this is not allowed, this becomes the biggest check in joining quickly. Watch if they become uncomfortable in your asking about their origins or teachings. Give yourself some time if you're seeking to know God or looking for a church he will give you warnings and lead you. Don’t ignore the warning signs or checks on how they conduct themselves no matter how friendly the people are . Love and emotional attachments are an old ruse to have you accepted without any strings attached. This doesn’t last long. Ask what they do on their spare time .Many times ones talent and creativity is smothered as all their time goes toward the group or church. Where do all the people in cults come from? Ron Rhodes writes in his book "The Culting of America," "It is a common myth that unbelievers join Cults." Percentages show that those who join these aberrant groups formerly attended Christian Churches. Dr. Paul Martin of Wellspring Retreat (where cultists adjust from their harmful experiences) writes, "Twenty-five percent formerly attended evangelical, fundamental churches. Over 40 % had backgrounds in large, more liberal Protestant denominations." Lately the International Churches of Christ probably have the greatest percentage of Church converts. Because their main goal is to go into the Christian Churches and remove people. Their are 2 categories of cults one is doctrinally the other is sociologically. 1. Almost all cults deny the Apostles creed which consists of the virgin birth, deity of Christ, his resurrection, his atonement aon the cross nd 2nd coming. They have tendency to pronounce other groups as apostate and they alone have the truth. 3. They devalue or deny the deity of Christ. 4. They have Extra sources of biblical revelation they may use Gods word with something else to interpret it 5. They have salvation by works -either denying God's grace or add performance. It will not always be easy to spot. Mormons say they are saved by grace-this means from death and not the penalty of sin. 6. They will deny a major doctrine. Cult like groups take a minor doctrine and make it a major. Ex: you must speak in tongues to be saved. The following are basic patterns, or characteristics, found in almost all cults that one can easily identify. Additions - Cults add to the Word of God by having additional writings they call scripture, or by saying that only the Bible is God's Word but you cannot understand it without their interpretation from their own teachers or books. The Bible is discouraged to be read alone. Subtraction - Cults subtract from the Person of Jesus by saying he is something less than Eternal Deity. Or they will add their own teacher as deity. Multiplication - Every false religion has works as part of their system of salvation. They also usually specify what works must be performed at a certain level for acceptance to their group and God. Mediators- They will always have others involved for ones salvation by others. For the J.W.’s it is the 144,000. for the International Churches of Christ its discipleship partners. For Mormons it is to join their church for salvation and use their materials- Doctrine and Covenants, Journal of Discourses and the Melchizedek priesthood. Divisive - Cults have people choose by dividing a person's loyalty. It's God through their leadership by claiming to be the only Spokesman or group for God. They also require obedience to their leadership to be in right standing with God. They do not tolerate another’s differing opinions and it is looked upon as being divisive or of the enemy.
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Ask about what other churches they are affiliated with. 
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